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As for the sentence of Paule, “God willing to shew his wrathe, to make his power knowen, suffered with long pacience the vesselles of wrath ordeined to damnation,” &c., it is direct contrarie to your error, notwithstanding ye abuse it to maintein the same. For seing, as Paul saieth, “God suffered them with greate pacience,” he is sorie for them; if he be sorie, then hath he no pleasure in their destruction: and that wherein he hath no pleasure, he willeth it not; and that which he willeth not, he doth not ordein it. Wherefor seing God suffered them with greate pacience to fall, he hath not ordeined them to fall. “Thou despisest (saieth S. Paule) the riches of God’s goodnes, and patience, and long sufferance; not knowing that the kindnes of God leadeth thee to repentance.” Behold here the cause why God suffered with long pacience is, that we should repent and amend. If they had bene absolutely “ordeined to damnation afore the foundation of the world,” then God knew they should never repent and amend: to what purpose then suffered he them with long pacience? Notwithstanding this is plaine ynowgh, and conform to the Word, yet ye despising whatsoever is contrarie to your mynd, ye stick fast to the literall sense of those wordes, “ordeined to damnation,” which wordes be spoken after the common manner of speaking, as they be called after the common phrase of speach. “Ordeined to damnation,” whose end is damnation. We use to say of a man that is cast to be hanged, “This man was born to be hanged,” notwithstanding it was not his mother’s mynd to beare him to be hanged. Such phrases have we verey many in the Scriptures, as Exodus xi., “Pharao harkened not unto you, that many wonders may be done in the land of Egipt.” Forasmuch as the wonders done in Egipt were grevous to Pharao, he did not disobey the intent that mo wonders which were plagues should come upon him; but this was the issue of his obstinat inobedience. Exodus xix., “Whosoever giveth his sede unto Moloch, let him be slayn, because he hath geven of his sede unto Moloch to defyle my sanctuarie, and to pollute my holie name.” the Israelites did not sacrifice their children to Moloch to defyle the Lordes sanctuarie and to dishonor the name of God, but to worship Moloch; notwithstanding that was the issue and end of their sacrifice unto Moloch, that the Lordes sanctuarie was defiled and his name dishonored. Thereby Jeroboam made the two golden calves, wherby he made Israel sinne, to anger the Lord God of Israel. the cause why Jeroboam made the two golden calves and his intention was not to anger God; but he thought that if the people should go up and do sacrifice in the house of the Lorde at Jerusalem, there heartes shulde return to Roboam, King of Juda, wherefor he made two golden calves to make the people sacrifice at Bethel, whereupon followed the wrath of God. “Of their silver and gold have they made them images to bring themselves to destruction.” the Israelites made them images, thinking thereby to be saved and not destroied; yet their destruction followed thereof. Jeremie saieth, “O my mother, alas! that ever thow diddest beare me to be a brawler, and a rebuker of the whole land.” Jeremie’s mother did not bear him to that intent, but yet this was the end. And in the New Testament, “If any man hunger, lett him eat at home, that ye come not togither to condemnation.” the Corinthians came not togither to the intent to purchesse thereby condemnation, but of their abuses in comming togither followed their condemnation.
By these places and many others, we may understand the phrase of Scriptures: “That they be ordeined to damnation, whose end is condemnation, which they receave not by the will of God, which wold all men to be saved, but as a just reward for their sinnes.” As the traitor which suffereth oght not to impute his death to the sentence which the judge justly hath given. against him, but to his own offence and treason; so when we for our sinnes be ordeined to punishment, we oght not to impute it to God’s foreordinance, which is both good and full of mercie, but to our own offences. “And seeing (as S. Paul saieth) God suffered them with greate pacience, their damnation cometh not by the counsell and will of God, for which he is sorie,” as he saieth by the Prophete Jeremie, “I have bene sorie for thee so long, that I am wearie.” Will ye say, that God wearieth himself, suffering and sorowing for them whom he had reprobated afore the world? Surelie, I think, that thoghe ye hitherto have unadvisedly said so, ye will from hencefurthe say so no more; which God grante in tyme, that ye wearie not the Lord also with sorrowing for you.
As your cogitations of God be grosse and carnall, so be your judgementes in this place of Scripture decevable and most erroneouse. Esteme it no injurie, that I affirm your cogitations of God to be carnall and grosse. For I can evidently prove, that some of you affirme and maintein, that God hath eies, fete, handes, armes, and finally, all proportion of man: that he slepeth, and doth againe awake; that he forgetteth, and after doth remember; that he is mutable, and doth in verie deede repent.
If these cogitations of the Eternall God be not carnall, yea, if they be not wicked and divelish, let the godly indifferent reader judge.
In this your long gradation, which ye make upon the wordes of Paule, ye conclude contradiction to the Holie Ghost and to the plaine wordes of the Apostle. For the Apostle meaneth and plainely speaketh, that albeit God doth long suffer and delay the judgement of the reprobate, yet cease they not to be vesselles of wrath, as they that are ordeined to perdition. But you conclude the contrarie, affirming that he hath not ordeined them to fall. And so because you conclude directly against the Holie Ghost, can not cease to say that your collection is erroneouse. But to give an answer more full and large, in examining the partes of your gradation, I will shew your error and the cause thereof. First, you say, seing God suffered them with greate pacience, he is sorie for them. Here, I say, in your first foundation lieth your error; and the cause thereof is, that altogether ye are ignorant of God’s nature, in whom neither falleth such sufferance, such pacience, nor such sorow, as you grossely imagine. God is omnipotent, and is compelled to suffer nothing which he hath not appointed in His eternall counsell: He is a Spirit, and free from all such passions as creatures be subject unto; for in his eternall Godhead there is neither pacience subject to paine, neither yet sorowe annexed with anguishe and grief. But when such passions be attributed unto God, it is for the weaknes of our understanding that the Holie Ghost doth subject himself in language and tongue to our capacitie.
Ye take libertie to yourself, in dyvers other phrases, to explaine them as you please, yea, even against the plaine Scripture. And why will ye not permitt that such phrases be so understand, as nothing be judged upon God’s Majestie which doth not agree with his godlie nature? Ye do far abuse the mynd of the Apostle, for he doth not inferre, as you foolishly and wickedly do, that becaus God did suffer with great pacience, therefor he was sorie, but saieth, he did suffer the vesselles ordeined to destruction; that upon the one sort his wrath and power, and upon the other (that is, upon the Elect) the riches of his glorie, might be knowen. This were sufficient to put silence to your folie. But yet somewhat to instruct the simple, I will somewhat travale to make these wordes of the Apostle sensible and plaine.
He had before concluded, “that God wold have mercie upon whom he wold have mercie, and whom it pleased him, those did he harden.” As this sentence far surmounted mannes capacitie, so might it engender some doubtes in the heartes of the verie godlie. For they might have reasoned, if that God will finally destroy all the Reprobate, to what purpose are they now permitted to triumphe and to trouble the Elect of God? in answering to which doubt, the Apostle assigneth three reasons, why God, with great pacience, suffereth the vessels of wrath: to witt, that his power, his wrath, and the riches of the glorie of his mercie, more evidently may appere and be knowen. For if God should sodanly, from the bellies of their mothers, take away the reprobat, or if he should in the beginning of their malice so break downe their pryde that they could not procede against him, neither should his power appere so great, neither yet his wrathe so just and so holie. But when he doth suffer them, as he did Pharao, from one mischief to procede to another, often removing his plagues, and so declaring himself easie to be entreated, even unto such tyme as their malice and raige do carie them, as it were openly to dispyse God and his power; when then, I say, in one moment God potently doth overthrowe the force and strength of his ennemies, as that he did of Pharao, Senacherib, Balsasar,†1 and of others, then is his godlie power and most just wrathe more evidently knowen, then that he should either have repressed them in the beginning, either yet have taken them away before their malice began to budde. For hereby doth he not onely admonish others of the certen destruction of all those that continue in crueltie, but also giveth to his Churche most singulare comfort, letting them see that his providence and power watcheth for them, even when the raige of the ennemie appereth to devoure all; and so do they see what is God’s mercie towardes them. Further, when the Elect advisedlye do consider what be God’s severe judgementes against the inobedient, and do consider how prone and readie they themselves be of nature to rebellion against God, except they were conducted by his Spirit, they come to a more livelie feling of God’s free mercie and grace, by the which onely they are exempte frome the rank and societie of the Reprobate.
Albeit that these endes and causes of God’s long suffering of the vesselles of wrath do not satisfie you, yet I doubt not but God’s afflicted children will and do take comfort of the same. You thus procede in your sophistical Sorites:†1 “If He be sorie (say you), then hath he no pleasure in their destruction. And that wherein he hath no pleasure, he willeth it not; and that which he willeth not, he doth not ordein it: Wherefor, seeing God suffereth them to fall with greate pacience, He hath not ordeined them to fall.”
Your foundation being fals, your whole building falleth by the own weight. Before ye procede any further, ye must prove that God did suffer in the vesselles of wrath that which he neither could nor might remedie; and therefor that he fell in greif and sorow that his power was no greater and his wisdom no perfiter. Wo be to your blasphemies, for they compell me to write that which I gladly wold not.
I have before said, that God nether hath pleasure in destruction, neither yet that he will the death of the sinner absolutely; that is, having none other respect but to their torment and pain onely. But, albeit, pryde and malice will not suffer you to grante that God hath created all thinges for his own glorie, yet will not he be suppliante unto you, that ye shall suffer him to use his creatures at his own good pleasure.
Where upon these wordes of the Apostle, “Doest thow dispyse the riches of God’s goodnes, not knowing that the kyndnes of God leadeth thee to repentance?” ye inferre, that the cause why God suffereth with long pacience is, that we should repent and amend. If you understand that God suffered his Elect, even in the tyme of their blyndnes, yea, and after their horrible falles and offenses, with great lenitie and gentlenes, to the end that afterward they may repent, I do agree with you. For so he did with David, Manasses, Paule, and many others, who, after their conversion, did not dispyse God’s lenitie, but did magnifie and praise the same, as in all their confessions may be read. But if you understand Paules wordes so, “that God hath none other end in that his long suffering, but that the reprobate shal repent and amend their wickednes,” because the Holie Ghost assigneth other causes (as before we have declared), I must preferre his judgement and sentence to yours.
To your unreverent, bolde, and furious question, in which ye ask, “To what purpose did God suffer them with long pacience, whom before he knew shoulde never repent nor amend?” I can answer none otherwise then I have done before, except that this I adde, That if ye be not content that God’s just wrath and greate power shall as well be manifested, both in this world and in the life to come, upon the vesselles of wrath, as that his mercie and the riches of his glorie shall be praised and extolled in the vesselles of mercie, that Experience (which the common proverbe calleth maistres to fooles) shall teach you, that it nothing profited the gyantes, of whom the poetes do speak, to heap up mountane upon mountane, of purpose to besiege Jupiter in the heavens. to use the wordes of Scripture, “If be tymes ye cease not so unreverently to question with God, you shall feele for ever what torment is prepared for such as with humilitie can not be subject to his judgementes incomprehensible.” For if ye shall constrein his Majestie to give you a reason which ye may understand and apprehend, what do you elles then go aboute to spoile him of his Godhead?
We stick none otherwise to the literall sense of these former wordes of the Apostle, then the rest of Scriptures permitt and do teach us. But how proper be your phrase and common maner of speaking, by the which ye labor to obscure the plaine wordes of the Apostle, we briefly shall examin. “Ordeined to damnation (say you), after the common maner of speach, doth signifie no more, but whose end is damnation.” to grant you somewhat, I wold know of you, Who hath ordeined damnation to be the end of the Reprobat? I perceave by your exemple, that ye dare not say God; for thus ye say, “We use to say of a man that is cast to be hanged, ‘This man was born to be hanged,’ notwithstanding that was not his mother’s mynd to bear him to be hanged.”
Besides the foolishe rudeness of this exemple, I wonder at your madness, that you can never make difference betwixt God and earthly creatures. Dare you say that God hath no greater power nor foreknowledge in directing and appointing his creatures to their endes, then the mother hath to direct, forsee, and appoint the end of her child? After that she hath born him, she knoweth not what shalbe his naturall inclination; although she instruct and correct him, yet can she not bow and expell his crooked nature; when he is absent from her presence, she seeth not his conversation. If he be deprehended in theft or murther, and so cast to be hanged, she can not (althogh she wold) delyver him from the handes of the judge. But is there any of these imperfections in God? Consider yet, and let reason at length put silence unto your foolishness.
Where of the wordes of Moises, of Hoseas, Jeremie, and Paul, and of the fact of Jeroboam, ye go about to prove that phrase, in that sense which ye adduce, to be common in Scriptures: I am in doubt whether that first I shall lament your blynd ignorance, or abhorre and detest your abhominable lies, and horrible prophanation of God’s most holie worde.
It is impossible that ignorance hath so blynded you all, that none of you can see the diversitie betwixt those maner of speaches, “God hath suffered the vesselles of wrath ordeined to destruction,” and these, “Pharao shall not heare you, that many wonders may be wroght,” &c. “Give not of thy sede to be offered to Moloch,” &c. “I will set my face against such a man, and I will rout him out from the midest of his people, because that he hath given of his sede to Moloch, that he might defyle my sanctuarie and prophain my holie name.” And so furth of all the rest; for onelie the place of the Apostle, after the English phrase and speach, may be rightly translated to condemnation. I appeall to thy conscience, thow manifest corruptor of God’s Scriptures, if in all the places by thee alledged there be not this particle, ut, which is a causal, and not the preposition, in, which is in the wordes of S. Paul. And hath malice so bereft thee of knowledge, that thow canst make no difference betwixt those two dictions or wordes. the Lord of his mercie preserve his Churche from so bolde and so deceatfull teachers. If altogether thou haddest bene ignorant, with sorow of heart I could have lamented thy foolishenes; but perceaving thee, of set purpose and malice, willingly to corrupt God’s plaine Scriptures, that thow may blynd the more easely the eies of the simple, with grief and dolor I say, that better it had bene for thee never to have bene born, then thus obstinatly to fight against God’s plaine trueth; and that in such furie, that where from the Scriptures thou canst have none assurance for thy error, yet so thow darest wrest them, that they may seme to serve thy purpose. Whersoever thou canst wrest any place, that it may be translated by this Englishe, to, there thow ashamest not to affirm, that it is the self same phrase with this of S. Paule: “Vesselles of wrathe prepared or ordeined to destruction.” This is sufficient to shew to the learned, yea, even to such as do but understand the first principles of their grammer, thy infidelitie and craftie deceat in this mater. But because such as understand nothing in the Latin tongue can not hastely espie thy craft, I will travaile to make it so sensible as I can.
If I should say, “I am appointed to death, to fele the punyshement of sinne, and so to make sinne to cease,” will thow therefor say, that this particle, To, in the former place, where I say, “I am appointed to death,” and in the second place, where I say, “To fele the punishement of sinne, and to make sinne to cease,” are all one phrase, and oght alike to be resolved? I suppose thow wilt not. For in the first place, it can be none otherwise resolved but thus, “I am appointed to death,” that is, I must nedes die; but in the second place, two causes of death be assigned, for where I say, “To fele the punishement of sinne,” I understand that one cause of death is, that I and all men may fele how horrible is sinne before God; and in this last, I understand that death so putteth an end to sinne, that after it may not trouble the Elect of God. the phrase of S. Paule is much more different from all that thow adducest, then be these phrases before alledged, one different from another. For where he saieth, “vesselles of wrath ordeined to destruction,” he signifieth the final end of the vessels of wrath to be ordeined and before determined in God’s eternall counsell. And in all these places, “to provoke the Lord to anger,” “to defyle my sanctuarie,” “to kyndle God’s wrath against Israel,” “to make Israel sinne,” and such like, are their actions signified to be the causes of God’s anger, God’s wrath, and why he reputed his sanctuarie polluted. Thus thy forwardness causeth me to trouble the simple reader. the place of Jeremie thow maliciously doest perverte, for it can be in nowise so translated. But what tongue soever thow doest follow, thow must say, “Wo be to me, O my mother, that thus hast born me a man that am a brawler, and a man of contention in the whole land.”
The place of Paule (1 Corinthians xi.) serveth nothing for thy purpose, for albeit there be a preposition, ad, which truely may be translated, to, yet that speach is far different from the former speach of the Apostle; for where he saieth, “Eat at home, that ye come not together to condemnation,” he doth admonish them of the danger which they know not, which was, that such inordinat and riotouse banqueting, joyned with the contempt of the poore, without repentance, must bring condemnation. If thow list replie, and alledge that thow stickest not so much to the termes as to the matter; for in all these former speaches, man pretended one thing, but another thing ensued; what canst thow thereof conclude, but that God’s purpose, sentence, and mynd, is not subject to mannes purpose and intention? True it is, that neither Pharao did resist Moises of purpose to be plagued, neither did Jeroboam erect the calves that Israel should be destroied; but yet, because God had so before pronounced, inevitably plagues and destruction did follow their inobedience. If hereof ye will conclude, as ye seme to do, that those whose end is condemnation receave not that by the will of God; because ye conclude that which neither ye have proved, neither yet go about in this place to prove, I will not trouble myself with answering for this present. But when ye shal go about to prove that God will all men to be saved, (as ye affirme), I hope, by God’s grace, to answer sufficiently. For as we doubt not but God’s judgementes are holie and most just, so we know that the conscience of the wicked shall fele in themselves, and no where elles, the causes of their condemnation. Neither yet did any of us ever hold, beleve, or affirme, that any reprobat shall have that libertie in the hell to quarell with God of the secrete causes of his condemnation; for the bookes shall be opened, and the secretes of all heartes shall be revealed.
To the suffering, pacience, and sorrowing of God, I have before answered, in the beginning of this your last confused gradation, and so I will not trouble the reader with the repetition of the same. the wordes of Jeremie which ye alledge can have no such sentence as ye do gather; for he doeth not speak of any passion that was in God, as touching his eternall Godhead, but onely doeth appeall to the conscience of the people, how oft God had not onely rebuked, but also from time to time corrected them, ever calling them to repentance, and suspending their last punishment, howbeit that they continually from evil fell backward unto worse. And so at length was God wearie oftener to repent, that is to say, at once he wold powre furth his just vengeance, which before so oft he had threatned. Let the first chapter of Isaiah be commentarie to this place, and I trust the sentence shall be plaine. For there he affirmeth, that in that people there was no whole part, that is, all order and policie was almost confounded, Jerusalem was in a maner left desolate by the manifest plagues which had apprehended it; but yet there was no true conversion unto God. And here he saieth, “Thow hast left me, saieth the Lord, and I have therefor lifted up myne hand upon thee, and have scattered thee; I am wearie in repenting,” that is, that I have spared thee so long. “I shall scatter them with the fan,even unto the gates of the earth, (that is, to the uttermost parte;) I have made my people desolate, and I have destroyed them; nevertheles, they have not turned from their waies.” I trust that everie reasonable man will consider, that those wordes be rather spoken to admonish the people, how God by all meanes had provoked them to repentance, than to declare unto us what nature or passion God hath in himself, as ye do. For so appereth in this your question: “Will ye say that God wearieth himself, suffering and sorrowing for them whom he had reprobated before the world? Surelie, I think, that thogh ye hitherto have unadvisedly said so, ye will from hencefurth say so no more.” And so ye end this portion with a prayer. to the which we answere in few wordes, that albeit we will not take upon us to define what after this shal your cogitations be, yet will we not cease to pray to God, that your heartes being humbled with greater reverence, ye may not onely think, but also speak of God’s hie Majestie, of his judgements most holie, most just, and utterlie in this life incomprehensible to our dull senses. But now we go forward to that which followeth.
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